Modding Tools 1.10

[Eudemon]

As you guys know with the latest release of the respected and much loved Modding Tools concerns have been raised over it's good and bad points. The good far outweigh the bad of course but even though the bad points are small they can be destructive to the TDU online community and it's players.

 

Now obviously with the PC there is always some cheating and foul play to some degree but the main question about MT1.10 is does this latest release add to and thus increase this issue or like I said at the start, does the good simply overcome the bad and the small amount of bad eggs who will use it in that manner aren't really relevant as they may be using a trainer anyway?

 

Let's see if we can get this sorted.

 

Thanks.

[Camel]

I'm still unsure about this. But I think it's a fantastic tool adnI'm still amazed as to how far he has been able to take TDU modding. But with this latest one, it allows people to cheat online in new ways.

 

I'd be up for allowing a physics editor if there was someway that it could only be used on an offline save, but not for an online save.

[Sponge]

Personally, it doesn't bother me too much as I just cruise... Those who are for races though will obviously object to it. Putting a password on a feature is out of the question, as it'd undoubtedly be in the open soon enough. Perhaps if the feature was able to determine if the host is in a race or not? As I'm sure cruisers would want to have a 4WD Audi R8 instead of the RWD Ascari for example.

 

The only solution that comes to mind straight away is to remove the feature altogether.

[Eudemon]

Is there any real way to distinguish between that though? I mean wouldn't that require original coding from the game itself to be altered? And to be honest I don't like the idea of it being completely removed as that's unfair to those who want to use it for basically cruising.

 

Aaaah this is such a :headbang: lol

[Djey]

Hi,

 

thanks first, for setting a discuss about this point.

 

As you know for sure, my intention was not to ruin this game. I've been moderating a french community while TDU was at the "gold age" (2006-2008) till rebirth with modding. We've never appreciated cheating of any kind over there (cracks / trainers / etc.).

 

 

While making TDU Modding Tools 1.10, I've learnt so many things about deep TDU's internals (encrypted database), potentially delivering most kept secrets of this game. And I knew some added features may lead to game balancing alteration.

 

That's the reason why, unlike some people recently, we've refused to deliver "alibaba's key" directly, but we've provided a tool to safely put fences around the database.

 

Which things to allow ? which to forbid ? This decision is not easy to make.

On the one hand, talentuous modders (and myself) are expecting more than simple body-swaps for TDU. Modifying physics is currently the only way to bring more realism.

What I've also learnt, is you can't do anything with car physics anyway. 2CVSUPERGT and me have found a list of forbidden changes. For instance, changing horsepower or car weight disconnects you; and I think it's wise.

 

On the contrary and we've been surprised, wheel drive tuning is allowed by TDU :confused: (having played during hours online without issues), so we did think balancing was always fair in spite of that. So it has come into Modding Tools.

 

I will add also, following changes are not possible right now but are allowed as well :

- changing gear ratios

- changing gear count

- changing engine position

-...

The first thing to do would be to evaluate which of those points are really a threat. I must reckon wheel drive changing is on the very edge of good and devil.

 

As I'm not a racer anymore (mainly a free-rider now), I sometimes forget racing aspect of this game and challenges around it. So I mainly see more advantages with this kind of altering than concerns about silly kiddies with their cheating habits :)

-and I'm not 100% sure whether all trainer attempts are blocked by TDU anti-cheat measures anyway-

 

 

TDU Central is a dream location for modding as the most skilled modders are here and around, so I'll work with any of you to maintain modding spirit into the right direction.

 

Finally, I agree to decrease / lock Modding Tools features, as long as reasons are fully justified. Let's see together, which things to bring, which ones to keep out, till they'd be completely safe to use.

[Sponge]

+rep for the mature understanding.

 

As with all our modders here, you're a credit to to the community and I would say that we wouldn't have nearly as many members as we do if it wasn't for the modders and yourselves.

 

I'd take back my comment about removing the feature. As you said, realism is everything for this game. and I do think that changing the drivetrain will improve the modding capabilities of the game. Besides, you're not going to get a helluva lot of difference from changing the drivetrain. Still has the same top speed, and you'll gain maybe 1/4 of a second 0-60 time?

 

I can't land on a stable decision here, I would vouch for allowing it, but for the immaturity of some cheaters, I would also vouch for disallowing it.

[Eudemon]

Thanks Djey, like we've all said you are highly respected and much loved for your contributions with not only your Modding Tools but with your general respect for others and also the support you give.

 

I know from the start your views on cheating and I also understand that there is more you have uncovered, and for the good of the community you do not want to publicly reveal or allow it to be used, which is great and shows you have real integrity. It's also reassuring to see that you can see where we are coming from regarding this matter and I'm sure you now see the complexity of this situation fully, as like you said there's a lot of good in this latest release but as with virtually everything, the good has to come with the bad and the bad here even though small is still enough to really disrupt the many few who still enjoy racing. Of course it also opens up a whole new arena to those racers in the VS stakes, what's better? A RWD or AWD car for example so there's good also with that.

 

It is also clear to see that Atari/eden is at fault in not having the foresight to realise that this would eventually happen as I imagine it wouldn't be that hard to do a server comparison with the local DB files.

 

Anyway, getting to the main point, I do very much like the ability you are giving TDU players, however the chance of increased disruption makes me worried even though there are already trainers that do a lot worse.

 

Ah I'm really in a pickle here.

[Eudemon]

So essentially the main threat with this is racing, compared to say this other guy who we had here who has worked out like yourself how to change hp, gears, weight etc and get crazy acceleration and top speed in little time. The difference here being that these cannot be used online whereas MT1.10's drivetrain can which lets be fair isn't that much of huge thing compared to like I said the trainer users that are already out there.

 

Can you set single player times with these huge increases like this other guy is candidly showing others how to do on his forum?

 

I don't want to take away the full modding potential in the accuracy of the cars, ie Audi R8 -> Ascari KZ1 becomes AWD from RWD is a great thing. So I would say as long as the power, gears, weight etc doesn't change then compared to what is already out there this is pretty acceptable.

 

However if I get any grief from Atari about it, it will have to be removed. Speaking of which Djey, don't you or someone on tdu/2.fr speak with David Nadal sometimes? If so can't he check out what they think about this?

[Djey]

That's fine.

 

By the way, there's no possibility in locking some features for using them offline mode only.

 

So I'll continue Modding Tools development, but only with bringing fair features.

To know if a feature is fair or not, maybe we could use chronopack as referee. Each tuning giving more than 5% (silly number, it would be great to define one) performance over original model won't be available to modders.

Performance also must be defined : is this a lap time, a max speed, etc...

?

 

 

Concerning developers' mind, we have collected no information for ages. Such a situation where admin of our community has got back to his life - coming back when EDEN studios will accept to set the link up again.

 

The last feeling from them was unofficial (they told their friends, and thanks to the web etc, it finally arrived to my ears) in fact they were impressed by all that it's possible to do now, even if they did work hard to lock modding. And now modding has gone even further, you can imagine ...

 

I don't know how EDEN Games director, David Nadal does feel exactly about this point. I've met him only once, but I think he's pretty cool and a vehicle enthusiast to tolerate what modding has brought to us.

He's always insisted over community aspect as it's how the game works and the next episode will work I guess. And we have an active community for a 2 year old game still !

 

Anyway, I believe the last word would be from ATARI/INFOGRAMES, whatever Mr Nadal thinks. As usual, they haven't pronounced any little word about it (no opinion concerning France).

It's clear we are not going to ignore their infirngementsif they'd give any - but in my opinion, modding did bring more on PC than on Xbox, where the lack of evolving may get players bored :)

So they would loose a lot by opposing towards community.

[Eudemon]

So in regards to the whole bhp, gears and weight editing, that can only be done offline right? And it's a shame you guys can't get any real info from those actively involved in the game, seriously Atari/Namco Bandai Partners or whatever the hell they call themselves now really need to learn already, I mean they have been like this for a long time and it clearly gets them nowhere!!

 

It's infuriating to say the least.

[Djey]

To sum up about tested facts :

 

- BHP : disconnects online a few seconds after exiting garage / works offline

 

- Weight : disconnects online (even if you increase weight) / works offline

 

- Max RPM : works online, so as offline (does not seem to affect performance, it just moves the rpm limiter)

 

- Gear count : works online, but performance gain has to be evaluated still

 

- Gear ratios : to be tested online soon, allows to change acceleration. So potentially can lead to an issue. Must be evaluated, too.

 

Gear changes does not seem to affect max speed (as TDU uses a limiter).

 

I can use this thread to report my findings, but it could also be in a public part of TDU Central Forum. To your convenience !

[Eudemon]

I would rather you use this thread to discuss matters pertaining to the disadvantages of these factors as if it's publicly known then it opens up the possibility of members arguing over what's right and what's wrong and so on, leading to a divide and that's something we don't want.

 

Another thing is how do these affect normal TDU players? ie; those who have the retail game only.

[Djey]

Ok, let's use this thread.

 

Waht do you mean by affecting normal players exactly ? Since those are not visual changes, there's no visible difference, only car behaviour.

[Eudemon]

Sorry I was talking about the Community Patch what with the addition of the limo for example, it's longer than normal AI traffic so does this affect normal users of TDU when others use it? Likewise with the optional method to alter traffic density and such, or are these offline features only?

[Djey]

It is used in both offline and online mode, users who don't have the patch installed can't see those new cars so pass through them (without collision).

 

Sometimes, the server also tries to synchronize players so removes some "transparent" civilians from the scene.

[Eudemon]

So what would you say is best for this Djey? We are not trying to limit or censor you in your progress in giving players new tools and featuresets to toy with, just trying to keep it as level a playing field as possible without Atari/NBP lawyers shouting at you, us and especially me.

 

Being a mod on the EU Atari forums is really a problem sometimes.

[Baldy]

Big respect for you Djey, your willingness to adapt and change to keep this Mod functional without causing problems for us is superb. Without people like you the Modding community would be a bitter place.

 

Hopefully we can sort these problems out and reach a level that is fair for all users.

[Djey]

I'm very interested in knowing if there would really be a risk with ATARI's lawyers.

 

TDU is not the first modded game, it won't be the last. To my knowledge, no commercial game officially allows modifying binaries and contents. But modding case is very particular - generally editors keep their eyes and mouth shut, even if that brakes terms in the software licence.

 

Are ATARI so stupid to start with infringing modders (because of cheating risks) about a 2 year old game ? I don't think so. I've played NFS Hot Pursuit II years ago in online mode, a lot of people was cheating during races... EA did nothing to web sites providing trainers and so on, didn't they ?

 

Anyway, since I believe it's not only up to us to make this decision (but ATARI plays the dead man about this game since too many months), I propose to remove unfair feature (wheel drive) for the moment, in order to provide fixes for Modding Tools and add soft functions instead.

 

As community eagerly awaits them.

 

What do you think ?

[Eudemon]

I'd say play your cards and see what they do afterwards, include the Drivetrain changeability and see if Atari/Eden/NBP say anything about it. If not then we have our answer but I wouldn't go so far as to allow players to change all things about their car that would disrupt the TDU online experience for others.

 

As you can imagine also, I need to be careful how this goes about as even though Atari say sweet fudge all there's still a good group of people I can talk to and maybe eventually get some info from.

[Djey]

Ok let's go then.

 

Anyway we'll stay in touch to react when time comes !